Wednesday, September 12, 2007

Period 1 Red Shift Class Discussion



The Assignment:
1. Post a paragraph in the comment field on a theory you have about the poem. You will not be graded on whether you are “right” or “wrong” but rather on the depth and your effort to achieve intellectual conversation. This is worth ten points.
2. Respond to someone else’s post specifically in this class (about a paragraph). It helps to start with something like: “Dear (blank), I was interested in your comments on (blank).” Then you may want to quote something he or she said and continue the idea or move on to a related topic. Intellectual dialogue is the key here. This is worth ten points.

Some questions to get you started:
What is “Red Shift” and why is it the title of the poem?
What is an arabesque and why did Berrigan choose that word?
Who are Frank and Allen and why are they in the poem?

Your paragraphs must be posted by Thursday at noon.
Period 1 post here. Period 1 post here. Period 1 post here. Period 1 post here.

40 comments:

HenryP1 said...

The theory of Red Shift, by Ted Berrigan is how his life changes after something or someone has gone and left him alone. The change that he goes through drives him to become upset and displeased that it happened to him. The title Red Shift means the time that his life drastically “shifts” into a new style which he doesn’t enjoy. He starts to complain about what’s about to become of him and what he has to do.

CASEYG1 said...

In Ted Berrigan’s poem “Red Shift”, he confuses me in a moment of time. After the first line and first time reading it, I’m lost in the wind, almost like Frank in the poem. But to try to bring more meaning to the poem I looked up the title of the poem “red shift” and found that it had to do with astronomy, which could show how some of the lines could make sense now. When saying “To burn, & to burn more fiercely than even she could imagine so to go” it could relate to the red shift because when being burned, the color is red and it has relevance to science. But then again he’s mentioning this girl, who is nameless and hasn’t been mentioned in lines before him saying that she is going to burn. Maybe she has such a strong passion of hate for her that he would like to see her burn? It’s confusing. But then he mentions that they will bun together, so maybe she’s dying, and he wants to die with her, because maybe he actually loves her? For him to say that she’s attractive and he wants to die with her, the love shows…….

CharlieC1 said...

The poem, “Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan confuses me greatly because I thought the poem was about the cold war. After doing a little research on the title “Red Shift” I realized that most links bring me to space. He says in the poem that the streets are looking for Allen, Frank and himself. This leads me to believe that the streets weren’t safe for them because enemy soldiers were combing the streets. I feel I am wrong though. Ted seems angry throughout the poem, almost like he’s angry with a women. He won’t leave her but yet it seems that she wants to leave him. He says, “& you will never escape from me” and he blames her for the trouble there going through.

Tina L Per 01 said...

The Poem red shirt is about the man who is angry about his fate. I think his love wanted to leave him, but he doesn’t want that happen. He might write this poem while he drunk, because there is the text in the poem stated “I drink some American poison liquid air which bubbles and smoke to have character and to lean”. He is also lonely and depress. He scare to be alone and that is the reason why he doesn’t want his love to go, “Alone & crowded, unhappy fate, nevertheless”. He might want to disappear:
“I slip softly into the air”. The title of the poem is red shirt, in the poem didn’t mention any red shirt. At the end of it, there is a sentence: “The world's furious song flows through my costume.”. I think the title “Red Shirt” related to the red color which is the color of fire, burning, angry and upsetting.

GeraldT1 said...

The poem Red Shift, by Ted Berrigan, has raised a few questions. Some questions are why the poem is titled Red Shift and what is the meaning of a arabesque and why did Berrigan choose to use that word.
I believe the reason why the poem is titled Red Shift is because the narrator might feel differently and expresses his depression, loneliness, and anger. Colors can represent how a person feels. For example, the color blue can represent relaxation and calmness. I think the color red might represent anger and fury. The narrator’s feelings may have “shifted” because someone has left him. This is the reason why I think the poem is titled Red Shift.
The word arabesque is used on the second line of the poem. Arabesque is a formal ballet pose and is also a melody from classical music. I believe the reason why Berrigan uses that word is because he is describing the winter air. Maybe the narrator is saying that the air is a fierce melody flowing through the trees.

HauinS1 said...

When I searched on the web, I found that Arabesque is an element of Islamic art which symbolize the infinite, and therefore uncentralized, nature of the creation of one God. I think Ted Berrigan used this word in Red Shift as he thought that the world is keep changing. Everyone is not reliable as someone had left him behind. He is no more confident in human relationship. He felt lonely and depressed because of the world. He wrote this poem to express his feeling. He also add the word fierce before Arabesque, as he was afraid of this terrible world.

Mary Kate W. P1 said...

In the poem “The Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan, it seems as if he speaker is trying to contain many emotions. He sounds as if he is very sad in the beginning and then builds himself up to be extremely upset. His mood then changes again towards the end, where he seems stubborn and again, sad. I did not like the poem at first, I thought it was very difficult to follow along and understand what the speakers meaning for writing this was. After analyzing and re-reading it many times, I understood that the speaker is very heart broken, and depressed. I found it confusing that he referred to things I did not identify with. For example, he mentions two characters “Allen” and “Frank”. All in all, I believed he poem was very confusing, it frustrated me because I felt very lost while trying to understand the speaker. I realize he is very hurt and upset with his life.
“I didn't ask for this
You did
I came into your life to change it & it did so & now nothing
will ever change
That, and that's that.”

He clearly is heart broken, perhaps his wife left him and he feels abandoned and alone. What didn’t he ask for? Why wont anything change now?

Conor R1 said...

When I first read "Red Shift" I was very confused about everything he was trying to say. He had already thrown me off with the first line. I didn’t know what was gong on threw his mind. When I heard him in the audio then I got a much better description of his attitude from when he wrote it. He seemed to be very angry with somebody and he wanted to get his feelings out and it is to complex for him to write this out of anger. This may all go together in a way but it seems random which is why I think it is complex. Going over it in class has helped me understand the poem better. That is all I have to say about the poem.

Pollyanna S 1 said...

The poem “Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan, this poem means a lot .The red Shift is when a radiating object moves away from us, we observe a red shift in its light, or the light waves it emits are getting longer. I think that the title of the poem is Red Shift because the poem takings about a how his life was change because he lost something or someone. The poem also talks about Frank and Allen .They are only a friend that lives on the same street.

KenneyD1 said...

The Red Shift by Ted Berrigan, has a small title, with a powerful meaning. One of the common symbols the color red represents is blood, or violence. In Macbeth red and darkness foreshadowed a bad scene or violence. Red can also symbolize the Russians. Ted Berrigan lived in a period known as the cold war, where the world came to a stop as two super powers were armed and ready for a nuclear war. Shift can be defined as Delta(change in); the eastern world was engaging in a shift into communism and leaving any that oppose erased from history. The title Red Shift, I believe was to describe the time period that he was living; that no one could decide their own fate. A time of violence and darkness; The play uses the expression vanish into the air or disappear. Air emerges a lot during the poem; What is air? Air is invisible; no one notices that they really need air, that it is so essential. Like humans, no one notices about the others and only worry about their lonesome selves; That they only noticed the human element once it’s gone. As people vanish into the air, we loose part of history, philosophy and ideas. Conformity can destroy human beliefs. At the end of the of the poem he mentions “I didn’t ask for this, You did” as if some one is to blame for all this. Its hard to extract who he is blaming but perhaps it could be himself. Earlier in the poem it states “we both vanish into the thin air signed up for”. Maybe they signed their own death warrant by joining a military, or draft. A person gave up his life and let the government control them and bring them to the war zone.

CharlieC1 said...

I agree with Mary kate because it was a difficult poem to follow and i also got the impression that he was sad and angry.

CASEYG1 said...

Gerald's decription of the poem is really deep. I feel as though color can symbolize how feeling change and can describe a person's characteristic.

Samy F. per.1 said...

After reading the poem “redshift” by Ted Berrigan it left me very confused which led me to read this poem more than once. After reading this poem over and over again I began to notice many significant ideas and I began to have jus as many questions. In the poem I notice that in my opinion that Berrigan described many things as if they were songs for example when Berrigan says “ Here I am at 8:08 p.m. indefinable ample rhythmic frame The air is biting February, fierce arabesques on the way to tree in winter streetscape” here Berrigan is describing the scenery around as if it were a song. Another example of this is when berrigan says “I'm only pronouns, & I am all of them, & I didn't ask for this you did… I slip softly into the air the world's furious song flows through my costume” once again berrigan uses words to describe what he are saying as if they were songs. I have many questions after reading this poem. What does the title redshift have to do with the poem? The dictionary describes redshift a shift toward longer wavelengths of the spectral lines emitted by a celestial object that is caused by the object moving away from the earth, how does relate to the poem. Another I have for this poem is who is “Allen” and “Frank” who berrigan mentions in this poem.

HaopingW,p1 said...

I found on the wed side some one say “It’s fitting that a creative organization, in a community focused on technology, combines science and art even in its title.” (Found at http://backend.userland.com/rss091) The poem show the people in U.S. were fear the idea of the communes and think the communists it will come to U.S. and take over the Gov. in U.S. From the words the he wrote. “I won't do that I am 43. When will I die? I will never die; I will live to be 110” I think he just say out the thought that the U.S. Gov. what to say. But why he use the song” California Dreaming" to do his example. And may he think about if the communes is grow stronger and stronger it might took over his homeland just like Germany in W.W.II. But I didn’t get this part is he talking about his friend or what? “The streets look for Allen, Frank, or me, Allen is a movie, Frank disappearing in the air” can any one tell me who is Allen and who is Frank?

Mary Kate W. P1 said...

Dear Conor, I definitely agree with your comment on “Red Shift”. The speaker’s poem seriously confused me when I read it. Once we listened to it in class, I had a better appreciation of what the speaker was feeling. His tone of voice helped set the mood, and made me feel more of his emotion.

luisb1 said...

What I thought about the poem “Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan, was that it was a strange but at the same time a deep poem. I also found it confusing reading the poem when I got to words such as “arabesques”. Which I later found out referred to an Islamic art of using geometric shapes of ceramic tiles. Why he used that word I’m not sure. As I go on reading this poem it only raises more questions. Like what does he mean when he says “I drink some American poison liquid” and when he “indefinable ample rhythmic frame”. But overall I think this poem was about the speaker losing some one he really cared about. Through out the speaker showed that he was depressed and displeased through the tone of his voice in the audio. So those are my final thoughts about “Red Shift”.

Johanna R1 said...

The author of RedShift, Ted Berrigan is a very confusing man. In his poem RedShift he contradics himself about every little thing. Also I think that he is afraid of going away and not be seen because he says he won't die until old age but he will still be in spirit and in ghost form after death. I would describe Ted Berrigan as a wierdo because in his poem he mentions two people by the name of Allen which is a movie and Frank who he says disappeared in the air. Ted Berrigan also says that he is 43 years old and won't do what the song "Calforinia Dreaming". I wonder what the song is about that he says he won't do as the song says. It doesnt seem that a song titled "Calforinia Dreaming" would be so bad and wrong.

Arnolina J1 said...

On what I think of the poem is his soul is in another body. How and why is because in the poem when he says “I will never go away, & you will never escape from me who am always & only a ghost, despite this frame, Spirit who lives only to nag.” I think this occurred because he was bothered or either torchured and because he lived a horrifying life that involved blood and murders which the title red can stand for blood and shift for change of body and soul. This guy or whatever he is has two possible friends Allen and Frank that are probably in the same position he’s in but indifferent form. The scenery seems as if they are in a deserted area where there are no more people as if everyone went crazy, lost it and committed suicide because towards the end he makes it seem like that’s what he wanted and that’s what he came to do. In that matter he’s gone as he says “I came into your life to change it & it did so & now nothing will ever change that, and that's that. Alone & crowded, unhappy fate, nevertheless I slip softly into the air”.

Pollyanna S 1 said...

“Dear Henry, I was interested in your comments on “The Red Shift”, by Ten Berrigan. I think that you comments was good, because is explain the poem very well.

Tina L Per 01 said...

Dear, Henry
“The title Red Shift means the time that his life drastically “shifts” into a new style which he doesn’t enjoy. He starts to complain about what’s about to become of him and what he has to do.”
I think he so depressed and angry that he want to disappear in to the air: “Alone & crowded, unhappy fate, nevertheless I slip softly into the air.”

Judith D. 1 said...

I think the “Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan is a very depressing poem. Ted uses the speaker and strong similes and metaphors to describe what he went through and what he once felt in his life. The poem takes place in the very cold winter of New York City. I think the title of the poem gives a lot of information about the poem. I think it foreshadows negative change in the speaker’s life. In the beginning of the poem, the speaker is reminiscing of his childhood. Allan and Frank use to be his childhood friends and they used to hang out on 6th & Bowery in the cold winter days. He uses a very strong metaphor to describe what his friends are to him now. “Allan is a movie, Frank disappearing in the air…heavy on me.” When he says this, he is saying that Allan is doing things he never expected; in his mind, it’s unreal and unrealistic; it’s like a movie; and that is why he refers to Allan as a movie. When he says “Frank disappearing in the air.” I think that is he’s way saying Frank died. He is a very lonely person and he is thinking of how his life became so sad and depressing.
When he says, “The Calvados is being sipped on Long island now twenty years almost ago, and the man smoking is looking at the smilingly attentive woman, & telling. Who would have thought that I’d be here, nothing wrapped up, nothing buried, everything Love, children, hundreds of them, money, marriage, ethics, a politics of grace…” This is where he is thinking 20 years back about his father and mother. He refers to them as the man smoking and the attentive woman. He is pushing away his problems, family, and friends. At this point something bad happened but don’t know what. He is reminiscing about his childhood and his parents. He envy what his parents had which was love, marriage, money, children, etc. and thinking who would have thought he wouldn’t have the same. He has nothing in his life. He is very sad by this fact. His father is smoking and drinking Calvados, which is alcohol beverage and he is looking at he pretty wife. He is very sad and has lost all hope and faith because he refers to himself as pronouns. He is so pathetic and unworthy of his name that he is just pronouns. His life is so sad that he thinks he isn’t worthy of death and that he will never die even though he wants to.
Towards the end of the poem, he has helped someone and they walked over him and betrayed his trust and love he had for them and I think that traumatized him and that is why he is so negative and depressed. I also think that Ted was in the army at one point and that could be why he doesn’t have all of the things he wishes to have and Allan and Frank could also have been in the war with him. Going to war has defiantly has a very negative shift on him and his life.

jalisaf1 said...

The Red shift
By Ted Berrigan

To tell you the truth I liked the poem The Red shift because it was very interesting and I didn’t mind reading it more then once to understand it better. At first I didn’t understand it at all them as I started to put my mind into it as well as trying to figure out what it means I started to ask my own questions about it. Also I didn’t figure out why it was called red shift until I looked it up on “Ask Jeeves” and it came up as… The Red shift occurs when the source of radiation is moving AWAY from you. And by my information I think in the poem it means he is moving away from is emotions and still thinks he is going to stay in everyone’s path. Also the word arabesque means; an intricate or elaborate pattern or design. Finally I think Frank is the air also a vivid imagination that he thinks, and Allen is a movie. That is my thought on The Red shift.

jalisaf1 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Samy F. per.1 said...

Dear, Pollyanna I agree with your comment on the “red shift” by Ted Berrigan. I also believe that the red shift is relating to how the time is passing by aimlessly because I think he has lost a loved one a family member or a lover of some kind. I also the “Allen” and “frank” who Berrigans mentions in this poem might be relating to some he has lost

lidia s1 said...

The poem “The Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan, is a very confusing piece of literature I didn’t understand it until my 5th time reading it. He seems to be angry and afraid of death he thinks he’s immortal that he’ll never die, or that he will live to be 110, but at the same time he feels powerful over other people “I came into your life to change it & it did so & now nothing will ever change” when he speaks his poem his tone sounds aggressive yet sure of what he is saying. I think Frank and Allen are characteristics of himself. Frank when he feels invisible when nobody notices him and Allen when everyone sees him and he’s like the center of attention like a movie. He also writes about the changes that come with aging in life, when he speaks about the young attentive women that then got older and wasn’t the same and that with time she will completely disappear in thin air.

Judith D. 1 said...

Dear Jalisa, I agree with your way of finding out how to interpret the poem. At first I did not understand a thing he was saying. I had to do lots of research before I knew what was really going on. I had to ask my peers what they thought the poem meant and I also had to ask different teachers to help me with the poem. As u did, I also had to look up words I didn’t understand and use the meaning and put it back in the poem and put it all together. The poem is about a very sad guy who has been hurt and betrayed. At the end I think the poem was a good one. It takes a while to get but once you do understand it, it is a very well written poem. Ted uses very strong similes and metaphors to make his different points.

lidia s1 said...

Dear Mary Kate I was interested in your comments on when you wrote that it seemed as if he was containing emotions I agree it seem as if the more he expressed his self the more upset he would get he also did get stubborn then sad at the end as if he had a lot of things on his mind and expressed it in a confusing way. I also definitely agree on you when you wrote how at first the poem just confused you and you didn’t like it dint like it at first either but after reading it couple of time I got the hang of it.

HauinS1 said...

Dear Mary Kate, I totally agree with your first impression of the poem which is hard to follow. When I first read the poem, I was really confused that what was the speaker trying to say. After reading it again and again, I feel his emotions, sad and heartbroken. Although, I don't understand the poem completely, like the "Frank" and "Allen" thing, I can still sense his strong emotions expressed in the poem.

GeraldT1 said...

Dear Kenney,

I agree on how the color red can represent violence and blood. I liked how you referred back to Macbeth. Also, your description has shown me a better view of the poem.

KenneyD1 said...

Dear Judith,
I like how you were able to extract all that information on allen and frank, i was having trouble on who exactly were they... i think he meant him self when he said frank, because he stats "frank, or me" as in hes trying to explain his life and maybe compare it to an old friend. and how his friend is succeeding and he is just vanishing...

Johanna R1 said...

Dear: Jalisa

I agree with you that the poem "Red Shift" by Ted Berrigan was very interesting to read because of all the struggles he mentions. I also agree of what you think the poem means "he is moving away from his emotions and still think he is going to be in everyones path.". Red Shift occurs when the source of radiation moves away from you. Which in some way can be related to the poem Red Shift by Ted Berrigan . The poem was difficult to read, but after you read it over and over again and ask you classmates what they thought of the poem it was easier to understand it better.

Conor R1 said...

Dear Kenny I was very interested in your comment because it looks like you did alot of reserch on the title and you were interested on the title and it makes alot of sence "Shift can be defined as Delta(change in); the eastern world was engaging in a shift into communism and leaving any that oppose erased from history". that is what made me think that you did reserch on the title. Your description on the poem made me understand better about the title.

Doug K, P1 said...

I found the poem “The Red Shift” by Ted Berrigan difficult to understand. In order to get an idea about what the poem was talking about, I had to use a dictionary. I found the poem helpful because I learned new words such as arabesque. Arabesque refers to any ornamental object, as a rug in which flowers, foliage, fruits, animals, and figures are represented in a fancifully combined pattern. I think Berrigan used the word arabesque because to give the reader a clear picture of what kind of environment he lives in. In the quote “The streets look for Allen, Frank, or me,” I think Berrigan means that his actions are similar to those of a street kid. In the poem, the writer talks about how he doesn’t want leave alone anymore. I think he was alone ever since his childhood.

Doug K, P1 said...

I agree with Hauins1. I also think that the writer wrote the poem to express his feelings. Writing the poem was probably his only way of sharing his feelings with the world. Just like Hausins1 said, “as he was afraid of this terrible world,” I also think that the writer might have been afraid.

luisb1 said...

I also agree with mary kate. When I was reading the poem I also found myself lost and confused. He also gave me the impression that he was mad and also depressed. But later I understood the poem a little bit better.

HaopingW,p1 said...

Responds: Kenney your comment was right the title “Red Shift” was a powerful title but the word you say. “No one could decide their’s own fate” it is wrong any one will have the power the design he or her own fate if someone say you will die at noon time will you just sit there and wait for your death? I don’t think you will wait for it, no one will, in the Red Shift Ted Berrign, say “I won't do that I am 43. When will I die? I will never die; I will live to be 110” it show he don’t like to die he want to fight for it.

jalisaf1 said...

Dear Judith i think your side of the poem is very good because you explain more about it and i can understand it alot better then i thought i could and you expanded yours much more then i did and you made it more interesting i didnt know in the poem that you thought that his father was smoking and drinking do you think that's why Tedd Berrigan's life went down hill? but i also think that you give more thought into what the poem was about then to just write anything...so good job.

HaopingW,p1 said...

Responds: Kenney your comment was right the title “Red Shift” was a powerful title but the word you say. “No one could decide they are own fate” it is wrong any one will have the power the design he or her own fate if someone say you will die at noon time will you just sit there and wait for your death? I don’t think you will wait for it, no one will, in the Red Shift Ted Berrign, say “I won't do that I am 43. When will I die? I will never die; I will live to be 110” it show he don’t like to die he want to fight for it. And I think Ted Berrign dislike the time per. When the people dislike or hate the gay lover, and he was dislike the fate he have now

Ever P.1 said...

The poem ‘Red Shift” by the speaker is a suspense type of poem because the different ways he presents himself in the poem. The speaker uses different types of tones in the poem such as calmness, and aggression towards a love one or somebody he knows. It foreshadows negative change in the speaker’s life. “Red shift” the name of the poem gives a specific meaning to what the poem means. The poem talks about different changes in the speakers life and mood in this poem gives good brief in how it’s a shift’s from being calm lonely and peaceful but then another faze is presented when reading the poem a little more. The poem expresses deep feelings in speaker’s life with the emotions he takes out like “To burn, & to burn more fiercely than even she could imagine so to go. Not that painter who from very first meeting I would never & never will leave alone until we both vanish into the thin air we signed up for & so demanded” He expresses his fearful mood towards someone he really cares about, he has been damaged mentally and his emotions been crushed. The speaker gives very odd feelings in his poem when he describes what he is looking at, feeling, and also when he addresses what time it is “8:08 p.m.” is he trying to say trying to say how he’s feeling at that time and time shifts later to show a different personality. “Red Shift” also could mean changing to anger because red signifies anger, fight, hate and all other bad feelings. His feelings are peaceful when he mentions “love, children, hundreds of them, money, marriage ethics, a politics of grace” at this point in this poem he talks about all the good things in life such as love, children, money, etc; which signifies happiness. Towards the middle of the poem the speaker tends to become angry. “To burn, & to burn more fiercely than even she could imagine so to go.” He expresses anger toward something or somebody. So the two emotions change dramatically from beginning of the poem to the end that’s why the title symbolizes what is the meaning of the poem.

Ever P.1 said...

Dear Henry,

The begging sentence that you wrote I agree with you because I think Ted Berrigan is alone and someone has really hurt him mentally and deeply. He is changing also with his mood and the tone of the poem “Red Shift” gets to become extremely rare and harsh. So Henry, when you describe that through the poem changes occur it is true because he basically goes form being a calmed man to a aggressively mannered man. The name of the poem “Red Shift” definitely means change or “shift” in his life. With all the explanations you gave about the poem I agree with it really makes sense in where you are coming with “Red Shift” meaning change in the speaker Ted Berrigans life.